What Does In The Image of God Mean?

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I salvaged this conversation from youtube, during a conversation on what "the image of God" may mean, thought I'd share for anyone seeking possible answers. Some of the comments are no longer in their original posted order, which may explain if some of the comments seem out of sync with the conversation.

November 18, 2009...

Ferdinand Lasalle. I learned of him in Henry C. Sheldon, 1895, "History of the Christian Church." Sheldon mentions embrace of mild socialist reforms, by Bismarck/German Empire and denunciation of Marxism which demands terrorism and worldwide revolution. Complete meltdown of civilzation. Socialism began with good intent, and corrupted by anti-Christ Marx. Marx' parasitical followers began putting posters of Lasalle w/Marx, to create the false impression Lasalle supported Marx, LEECHING off Lasalle's success.

Aside of Lasalle's success being preyed on, Darwin was also victimized. Gaining widespread notoriety among scientists (I've read Catholics have no problem with Evolution) Marx tried wedging into Darwin's success. See friendsofdarwin.com/articles/2000/marx/. Darwin refused request for dedication in an Anti-Theist book. Darwin would not associate with Atheist bigots. MARXISTS BEGAN PRINTING POSTERS OF MARX' BOOK ON TOP OF DARWIN AND LASALLE, tho Darwin/Lasalle both had denounced atheist bigotry.

"I've read Catholics have no problem with Evolution"

And I read somewhere that L. Ron Hubbard wasn't crazy. lol..

I can tell you that in My Diocese, Karl Marx, Darwin or Evolution are NOT looked upon with kind eyes. We teach from the Gospel, no not the Catholic Bible but from The King James Version. Mass is completely centered on the Bible from the readings to the homily. I don't think most Protestants understand Catholicism and it's a shame because it contains allot of Christian history.

Perhaps then, SOME Catholics are accepting. NC-PBS Evolution: Triumph of an Idea (Carl Zimmer), the Bishop featured to represent Catholicism seemed to feel Evolution was not a problem. For me too, I do not see contradiction. After years of publishing among Darwinists, then converting to Christianity, I went through Genesis 1 verse by verse, and it aligns in perfect chronology with all that science has discovered, including solutions to serious mysteries, i.e., the Cambrian Explosion.

My Darwinist compadres were aghast when I provided concrete evidence, AMG KJV Study Bible, states "attempts to join the biblical account of creation and evolution are not supportable... because the order of creation is in direct opposition to modern science (e.g., the creation of trees before light.)"
-- DO WHAT??
I knew this was a LIE. In fact, the elusive "tree" in Genesis was discovered, Prototaxites. Not angiosperms (flowering), but spores(seed) non-photosynthetic, fruiting fungi 'tree'.

So in essence, if I'm following you correctly, you accept the ideas of people like Cormac Murphy-OConnor?

Heyyyy, that's an insult.

"...During this time it was brought to his attention that a priest, Michael Hill, was a child sexual abuser. Instead of reporting Hill to the police, Murphy-O'Connor allegedly allowed the crime to be covered up..."

I found an article by this person Murphy-O-Connor. He has very little understanding of Science or Genesis.

HE WRITES: "It is a mistake to treat the theology of creation in the Book of Genesis as a scientific textbook."

Hmm.. after years publishing in thick of Darwinists and sometimes peer review of variegated scientists -- I converted to Christianity.

I can only say after all I had learned from science, I read Genesis verse by verse. And, interpreted so, it is SPOTLESS modern science!

No. I do not accept Connor's views. He has no understanding of Science or Genesis.

To make a long story short:
Science teaches earth once was "without form and void". Science teaches plant_ancestors arrived first (algae, fungi, etc).

Most profound truth of all. Science teaches that animal life began in the water and emerged on land. That's precisely what Genesis 1:20 says. God said, "Let the waters bring forth the moving creature."
etc

Genesis is identical chronology w/fossil record.

Ok, cool. My apologies. I thought your views ran somewhat parallel with his. I do see where your coming from now though.
I'm a white Catholic (1/4 Iroquois) but the rest is Euro. I see the depictions society has produced of Jesus or Adam and Eve for that matter and I know they're probably not right. I cannot bring myself to toss out history i.e. time and places of origin. I don't think anyone really has a clue what God looks like. So, did he model Adam and Eve entirely of himself? Or

God is spirit. When I checked the KJV footnotes, I found something very interesting compared to other interpretations (especially Atheist) . . it is written, God said "Let us make man in our image...." and I had to ask what "us" means. In the footnotes, it states (Heb.)"plural, majesty" -- and the "us" is followed by "male and female (plural) created he them".

So in God's image, both male and female.
Sadly, some have tried to teach woman could not be in the image of God...

did he just give free will to the Adam and Eve? What does "in his likeness really mean" I know God didn't create a monkey after his likeness because then that would collide with the evolution of that mammal. I think these questions can only be answered by God. I believe that there is allot missing from the Bible and the New Testament as far as preciseness is concerned. Which is understandable giving the age of such writings. Also, is the Bible Vague on purpose?

Do we really think we could ever understand what God really looks like or sounds like. I don't think so. If we did know these things, that would leave God open to judgment and we know thats not gonna happen.

It was my conclusion, after reading the scripture, where it says let (us=plural majesty) create man in our image, male and female (plural) created he them...

I believe the very words that follow after "in our image," is the explanation:

... Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth...

I still cannot say for sure what exactly "in our image" or "In his Likeness" exactly details. We have God in us but how much is to exact detail? I'm not sure we can ever truly understand the magnificence of God as earthly beings. I would suppose the quick and easier answer would be that Cro Magnons and the Sons of God reproduced at sometime. Sometimes The easiest answer is the right answer but we are talking about very complex issues here that have been discussed for thousands of years.

Scientists research for signs of animals using "tools". Evidence of intellect that sets man apart from animals.
Man had already achieved great things by the time Adam was created 10,000 years ago. Cro-Magnon were the first to be true artists, leaving cave paintings of Aurochs (cattle that have long went extinct), they carved beads, and even "venus idols". But they did not know how to farm.
People were nomadic hunter-gatherers, until man learned to farm and were then able to create settlements.

Day Six or an "Epoch" (fair Hebrew usage) Heb."Yowm" does not always mean 24 hour day. That word is used often to imply indefinate period of time, i.e., "in that day you eat thereof you will surely die." But Adam lived 900 years. So it was in "epoch" usage of the word, not a 24 hour "day". Adam was created 10,000 yrs ago. In Epoch Six, humans are created. Those were the primitive, early man-kinds that paleontologists continue to find. i.e., homo erectus, sapien, neanderthal, cro magnon, etc

Genesis 1 and 2 aligns PERFECT with science. i.e., Chapter 6 mentions "man of old" (Cro-Magnons who lived 40,000-10,000 which were giant (six ft tall on average), powerful built people, Adam descendants "the sons of God" interbreeded with them.) Genesis says of Adam, there was "no man... to till the ground". He's father of Agriculture, not the first human.

Adam, was the first farmer. Scientists have known Mesopotamia is where farming began at the same time Adam is described being created. But people like O'Connor misinterpreted that it was saying Adam was the "First Human". Genesis only says, "there was no man to till the ground"

Agriculture History
Over the 10000 years since agriculture began to be developed, ..... agriculture in the Middle East was static, and Mesopotamia, for example, ...
adbio com/science/agri-history.htm

Well I definitely understand your arguments (Conclusions). I might not agree with every thing but I certainly respect your opinion.

Some gray areas are still present in me as the traditional Christian teachings collide with my God given intellect.

Speaking of the image of God.. when you read about the creation of Adam and Eve. They broke God's commandment, and partook of the knowledge of Evil. Then, they began to populate.. it is not written, "God saw that it was good," (like it was with the earliest man who lived in simplicity and did not harm anyone) but rather, "And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually."

That's modern man.

"...what exactly "in our image" or "In his Likeness" exactly details..."

The fossil record shows man rose above, and dominated the environment, above all the beasts. And "God saw that it was good". But the one thing man could not do, was farm to settle.

It is written in Genesis 2, "there was not a man to till the ground." So God created the first farmer in Mesopotamia, apprx 10,000 years ago. In God's Image? No, to do continual wickedness.
It is written, God then repents he even made man.

It was my (personal) conclusion, that in the image of God, is explained "to have dominion". Early man developed innovative tools, weapons, spears, etc., mastered his environment.

Of interest too, "I have given you every herb bearing seed...upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat."

Early hominids and humans (i.e., A. Robustus) are believed by Paleontologists to have been vegetarian (due to dentition).

Primitive man are still among us.
Descendants of Adam who took of the knowledge of evil, "their eyes were opened and knew they were naked".
There are still primitive people living to this day in jungles disconnected from modern world and lived nomadic for 10,000's of years. They run around naked, and do not have that perverse "knowledge of evil"... peacefully living as a "tribe". They still hunt and gather foods, and do not farm.

Atomic bombs, Frankenstein genetics... who's the SAVAGE?

Creationism teaches falsely that man (Adam, the fallen one who disobeyed God's commandment), was created in God's image, but it only says "there was no man to till the ground". Only primitive man was described as "in the image of God". Adam' descendants began plundering Cro-Magnon women, who's children were the same "mighty men, men of old," Nephalim, bullies. Continual wickedness; violence. God REPENTED he made man.

In the image of God? No. CRIMINAL man. Man are far more evil than monkeys.

Creationism may teach primitive man coming from apes, is... evil or unbelievable. TELL ME THEN what is so "holy" about modern man? What sets man above animals? Monkeys are better! Gorillas don't crack your skull open for a line of crack cocaine. Chimps don't sell their own mother for a dime. Orangutans don't go pedo on juveniles in the troop.
Animals only kill for food. Wicked man does it for sadistic sport... even preying on humans in the same manner.

It is written, God repented making man.

I don't always know the answers. When I converted to Christianity, I arrived at this conclusion:

Through Jesus Christ... we can read scripture, and the answers we seek will be given. "Knock, and the door will be open to you. "Seek and ye shall find."

Jesus is the only intermediator between a person, and God (The Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth) to provide all revelations.

So God must answer you. I cannot.

"So God must answer you. I cannot."

Thats the way I see it also.

I also understand allot has been lost in translation like you bring to attention. Take the simple word "carpenter" that describes Jesus and follow that translation all the back to when that was written. It actually means "one who works with his hands". Giving the era I would tend to think he was more of a stone layer than a carpenter. But in my experience most Christians think of him as a carpenter who built houses.

--

... that's MY belief. The false teaching that man is "holy" or somehow "morally superior" compared to monkeys... as if it were proof against Evolution? No. Genesis describes that God grieved at man's ignorance, evil and criminality. Think pedophiles, armed robbery, violent assault, etc on human nature and ask yourself, "Are chimps in your neighborhood trying to rape kids?" I'd say monkeys are morally superior to many so-called "humans". Genesis concurs, that their thoughts were continual wickedness. therefore, a massive flood was sent on Mesopotamia..

Beyond "dominating the earth"... what is left? Every wicked thing under the sun? Image of God?? NO. More evil than many animals.

Man does create God in his own image though.

On a positive note, it states further on (it is known God gave them his commandments) they refused to obey... the same wicked men... God broke Israel and Judah and scattered them throughout the Earth.. and said he would yet make a new covenant through his son, (Despite the wickedness and enmity to God), ... see John 3:16

(I've said it 1000x already), "who is the SAVAGE"? When I point out atom bombs, genocide, and other wickedness that is in the heart of man... I guess it troubles inerrantists' and their impression of man's "special" status over monkeys and other creatures. Nope, God created ape, and it was good. God created modern man, and God grieved.

I am all too familiar with the false dogma taught by the churches -- adherents mindlessly nodding their heads in agreement against human Evolution, as if man had something "so special," about him, "so morally superior," ... compared to animals. Oh, contraire! Genesis is emphatic on this! Emphatic enough, that God flooded the Mesopotamian region, wiping out the hotbed of the human failure called modern man. Followed by raining down fiery sulphur on Sodom due to their wretched treatment of people.

Those fundamentalists nodding their heads in church. When they head out the door with the Bible they never read, they'll play the devil the rest of the week... I have never figured out what makes them believe humans have any moral high ground over animals. From my personal experience, animals make better friends than most humans.

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Archaeological and Geological Evidence for Biblical Flood in Mesopotamia Was A Localized Flood And Theologians Knew This Already

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The denial of Science by anti-Theists must end.

I'm providing copies of documentation for the following,

Evidence that theologians are very well aware of scientific criticism raised in regard to a "worldwide flood" and problems with all species on earth on a single boat, among other issues.

The actual interpretation of the original Hebrew which meant "localized" flood.

Scientists who theorize the Black Sea (brackish water) may itself have been the result of a catastrophic flood in the same region. A great flood of historic proportions that was immortalized into remembrance, through ancient mythology.

Geological evidence of a massive flood like that described in Genesis, but only exists in the region of Mesopotamia, where the book of Genesis was recorded.

Other scriptural evidence that supports what Dr. Geisler has proposed below, for the Hebrew term implying a "localized" flood

HEBREW TEXT EVIDENCE
namely, Genesis 10:2 (speaks of Japheth and descendents, spreading outward after the flood): "The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras... By these were the *isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

*Both Atheists and Fundamentalists are guilty of perpetually evading this question in their attempts to status quo the heck out of a "worldwide flood," perhaps in hope to discredit Genesis, but the question will not go away: Just whom does "isles of the Gentiles," refer to, and whom were these Gentiles who survived the flood?

The text clearly implies the sons of Japheth divide the land of the Gentiles, according to their tongues. So, the whole earth was not of the "same language".

Yet, in the very next chapter, Genesis 11, we see the opening verse (in supposed contradiction with Genesis 10?)
Genesis 11:1 "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech."

It can not be both. Needless to say, it is not both.
Skeptics might wish this faulty interpretation be perpetually propagated in their sole aim to nullify Genesis). But Dr. Geisler definitively points out, the Hebrew usage is referring to the immediate, localized region.

According to http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/I/ISLES+OF+THE+GENTILES/

"...the American Standard Revised Version "isles (margin "coast-lands") of the nations," said of the territories of the sons of Japheth. The reference is to the coasts of the Western Mediterranean, with their islands (compare "isles of the sea," Est 10:1; Ezek 26:18, etc.).

Take a look at the location of "Western Meditteranean" in contrast to the location of Mesopotamia, where actual geological evidence exists for a massive local flood. Therefore, it can be deduced the Noachian flood never actually reached the Western Meditteranean and the "Gentiles" spoken of in Genesis 10, did survive the flood.


SCRIPTURAL CRITICISM
Another item to consider is from "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," by Dr. Norman Geisler. Skeptics really should stop pretending they have discovered a cutting-edge line of questions to overturn theology. Dr. Geisler's commentary is ample evidence the issues have been considered long before now, by himself and other credible theologians. Whether or not the church at large is teaching these truths to mainstream Christians is another story.


Flood, Noah, Pg. 258
Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, Dr. Norman Geisler
Fourth Edition, ©1999

Christians are usually the last to be taught facts about these matters by the corrupt religious establishment, who seem to feel truth is on a "need to know" basis. Therefore I'll provide the information Pro Bono.

Note: As it were back in the dark ages of the Catholic Church's height of power, depriving the common person access to the scriptures.. at threat of death some men like Tyndall, Wycliffe, Luther and others took it upon themselves to translate and make accessible, scripture, for the common person.
How sad, with history showing brave men who sometimes suffered the fate of death for this "heresy," most Christians today, don't even read their Bibles. Was the sacrifice in vain, or is it rather that the church is guilty of convincing adherents they lack the ability to properly understand scriptures without an establishment intermediator from organized religion?
Did Jesus Christ die in vain, or is not Jesus the only intermediator between a person and God? They will be taught by God! When Christians depend on men to teach, the blind lead the blind and they both fall in the ditch.
But that's only my opinion, after becoming saved, actually reading the scriptures... and God's promise to reveal the truth to those who ask, so what could I possibly know?

Flood, Noah, Pg. 258
Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, Dr. Norman Geisler
Fourth Edition, ©1999

So why do Darwinists and Agnostics and Atheists continue to pretend these issues were never raised and acknowledged by Christian theologians? Evade as they may, this publication is dated 1999, at least a decade since its publication! Yet the same outdated arguments will continue to churn from the Darwinist side, who are perpetually in denial of the more reasonable explanations already offered by leading theologians. In my personal experience with Darwinists (those certain Agnostics who seek to shed doubts on Scripture in hopes of winning over prospective converts to Atheism) share a preference for false, misleading and outdated information, sticking with status quo controversies such as 200 year old outdated beliefs; flat earth, geocentrism and other beliefs that the majority of Christians wouldn't even have known existed... and by making arguments against such things, one may be lead to presume Christians are "less intelligent," than an Atheist, or other Ad Hominems. Dishonesty seems to be the Atheists' preferred Modus Operandi over solid, honest debate as in addressing the full spectrum of the issue, instead of perpetually cherry-picking what may be distorted to make one's side seem more "intellectual." But of course, it boils down to nothing more than intellectual dishonesty, in hopes of creating the illusion they (the Atheist) hold the monopoly on scientific truths. Doesn't every religion claim to hold the monopoly on the one true, "absolute truth"? Atheism is no different than any other religion.



The side that stands with TRUTH doesn't need to use lies, to win support... the truth stands on its own. The purpose however is more along the lines of deceitful propaganda, to create a false impression that no original thought ever enters the brain of a Christian. Character assasination, in contrast to the "intellectual, scientific discourse" they are so famed for boasting to adhere to.

BLACK SEA FORMATION THEORY

http://www.natgeochannel.co.uk/Programmes/Schedule.aspx?Id=678
National Geographic produced a special on the question of the formation of the Black Sea. This theory was proposed by two scientists who were veterans in geology and question if ancient mythologies may possibly hint at the flood described in Genesis, devastating enough to form the Black Sea.

Robert Ballard, the man who found the Titanic, ventures beneath the 'dead zone' in the Black Sea. Will he discover clues about one of the most dramatic events in the Bible?

MESOPOTAMIAN ARCHAEOLOGY AND GEOLOGICAL EVIDENCE




Reference: January 1930, National Geographic Magazine, Page 118-120

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Cambrian Explosion -- The Big Bang of Biology

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An Atheistic-evolutionist wrote, I presume in hopes to cast skepticism and doubts on Genesis aligning with Paleontology. I'll stick by my guns there is only one Cambrian Explosion and will only be one Cambrian Explosion until the end of time. That Cambrian Explosion is the same one Charles Darwin wrote of extensively, and the same one acknowledged in Epoch Five of Genesis, when God said, "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature..."

"The Avalon Explosion
Ediacara fossils [575 to 542 million years ago (Ma)] represent Earth's oldest known complex macroscopic life forms, but their morphological history is poorly understood. A comprehensive quantitative analysis of these fossils indicates that the oldest Ediacara assemblage—the Avalon assemblage (575 to 565 Ma)—already encompassed the full range of Ediacara morphospace. A comparable morphospace range was occupied by the subsequent White Sea (560 to 550 Ma) and Nama (550 to 542 Ma) assemblages, although it was populated differently. In contrast, taxonomicrichness increased in the White Sea assemblage and declined in the Nama assemblage. These diversity changes, occurring whilemorphospace range remained relatively constant, led to inverse shifts in morphological variance. The Avalon morphospace expansionmirrors the Cambrian explosion, and both events may reflect similar underlying mechanisms.
--Shen et al. (2008) “The Avalon Explosion: Evolution of Ediacara Morphospace” Science 4 January: 81-84."
~ scienceblogs.com/strangerfruit/upload/evolutionis.pdf

Meanwhile, I'm providing a brief timeline for better insight into something that should not be overlooked... great significance for insight into scripture. Epoch Four discusses nothing about the evolution of life on the Earth. It is silent on the matter. It only discusses affairs of the heavens.



So, what's the point if they find traces of life activity between the time the earth brought forth (Heb)"Tender" grass (algae), non-photosynthetic "herb"(fungi) with spores within itself and non-photosynthetic fruiting fungi "trees" with seed(spores) within itself.... (Epoch Three). The fossil record confirms indeed, such things existed.

...and millions of years later, when the Cambrian Explosion occurs... the same burst of diversity Charles Darwin wrote extensively of, is described emphatically in Epoch Five, "Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature...."

The Gap: What happened on earth, between Epoch Three and Epoch Five? Genesis is silent on the matter. There's no discussion of the Earth in Epoch Four.

So, this (albeit, interesting) information is somewhat, irrelevant, beyond some insight into what was taking place during the epoch "God made two great LIGHTS to give light upon the Earth..." as in making the sun go nuclear fusion.

After the sun went nuclear, God commands, "Let the waters bring forth ABUNDANTLY..." and that perplexing observation, went with Charles Darwin to his grave. There's lots of things ommitted from Genesis 1... and only a nit-picker would strain at gnats, expecting mention of them be included.

Whoops, that was Vendian (Late Precambrian). Corrected timeline chart‏

Unlike Atheists who are perfect, and have "absolute truths," I'm only human and make errors.

The Vendian was the "late precambrian" (650-540 MYA). The sun went nuclear, somewhere between the Vendian (late precambrian), and dawn of the Cambrian.

The fossil record testifies of this with the proliferation of animal life. When the sun is absent, animal life spirals into extinction.

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Cro Magnon, Cave Man and Identity of the Nephalim Giants in Genesis, the Old Testament

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I won't trouble anyone with all the false explanations from 1) Fee Fi Fo Fum 30 ft tall mythological "Giants," to 2) Fallen Angels / Demons, to ... who knows what other explanations, I'll stick with the reasonable Biblical explanation.

Here's the famous chart of Science' Evolution of Man, showing the line that lead up to Cro-Magnon, and Cro-Magnon was replaced by "Modern Man" who the father of Agriculture (tilling the ground) and the first settlements.



The major difference between Cro Magnon man (40,000-10,000 years ago) is that Cro Magnon did not farm. He was the prehistoric "cave man," nomadic, hunter/gatherers.
Agriculture which enabled man to create settlements, began in Mesopotamia, around 10,000 years ago, the same is described in Genesis 2:5: "...and there was not a man to till the ground.") with the creation of Adam, Agriculture began to flourish and spread throughout the ancient world, and strong emphasis is on how not a man existed, to "till the ground". How that became "no man existed," was through fundamentalists' denial of Paleontology and the fossil record of human evolution.

How ironic, that instead of "denying the Bible," scientists were merely doing the will of God, to explain the mystery of Genesis.

"Tilling the ground," is emphasized and re-emphasized. Many Atheists raised the question, "Where did Mrs. Cain come from?" after Cain fled following the murder of his brother. Cro-Magnon had a heavy population throughout parts of Europe and the ancient near east. That is where "Mrs Cain" came from. It is written, (Genesis 4:11) that God greviously cursed Cain, who was a tiller of the ground,

"...And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother's blood from thy hand; When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth."

How interesting that Cain expressed fear about every man who found him would want to kill him? How odd, if the only man living at the time, aside of his dead brother, were his father Adam. Obviously, it is implied that other men were living at the time, including cro magnon women, from whom Cain took a wife.

"And there were giants in those days..."
Many of these ancient people stood 6 ft. tall on average. The video documentary mentions Ancient Chinese scrolls and cave paintings of figures of "great height" that lend credence to the accounts



(see this video snip on the Silk Road Mummies, from National Geographic, "Mummies: Voices of the Dead" (available on video tape.)



Who the "Sons of God" are,

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
~ Genesis 3:22

Please take note that God mentions nothing of "fallen angels," "demons," or otherwise. The wicked ones in discussion who plundered the "daughters of men," were man... men... modern man, Adam, a son of God, hand-crafted from the earth, by God himself. Adam was the "fallen one," if you please, and "...they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."

Genesis 6:4
There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the 1) sons of God came in unto the 2) daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

The verse is speaking of none other than the ancient Cro-Magnon man, ["men of old"] or "ancient man" which had existed from approximately 40,000-10,000 years ago, and through interbreeding, was replaced by modern man.

A famous museum bust of cro-magnon man

Now that age old question, "Who Was Mrs. Cain?" is answered. A question often asked by those Atheists, whom were reciprocated with their parents being asked not to bring their children back to Sunday School, because they "asked too many questions." That, requested by Sunday School teachers who simply didn't know how to answer simple questions, due to their ignorance about the human fossil record and denial of evolution and science... and what is written in their own Bible. But perhaps that is due to, more often than not, a failure to actually read their Bibles.

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Tooth and Claw: Death Before the Fall

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Why Does God Allow Suffering?
No death entered the world, until the "fall of man"? (So some fundamentalist denominations teach.)
What verse in Genesis supports that doctrine, that animals began killing and dying just because man disobeyed God? It states the snake will eat dirt, and snakes do indeed, every time they stalk prey and roll around in the dust, asphyxiating their victim, which they consume whole, bloody mud and all... but what verse states God commanded animals to eat other animals, and death as a curse on all animal kinds? The world we live in with its violence of tooth and claw, is loaded with evidence for the answers we seek to questions about God and Nature. The fossil record tells in contrast that omnivores and carnivores have always had teeth designed to rip prey to pieces... long before man was created. The question is, do you want to live in this kind of world? Or is there a better way to live? The Bible speaks of a new heaven and earth, and the lion laying down next to a lamb...

Our Cats Kill a Mouse and Bird, Part 1




It is so sad, when I discovered Miss Silky killed a bird.

Non-Believers ask if God cares about suffering and death?
I had a sneaky suspicion all evening, it would be, a Sparrow... a White-throated sparrow, (Zonotrichia albicollis.)

"Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? Yet not one of them will fall to the ground apart from the will of your Father. And even the very hairs of your head are all numbered."
Matthew 10:29-30

The mouse, well... if they didn't spread pestilence, it would be another story.



Our Cats Kill a Mouse and Bird, Part 2


Death was already in the world. The "Sons of God" (Genesis 6:4), modern man, (father of Agriculture) had their chance at immorality, had Adam only obeyed God's command to abstain from the forbidden fruit (Genesis 2:16-17) and sustain their life by eating of the "tree of life." (Genesis 2:9 and Genesis 3:22). Man was cut off from the fountain of their immortality, the tree of life,

"And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
~ Genesis 3:22

They were driven out, and then, inevitably fated to die.

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A Creationist Speaks : Keep Creation Science Out of the Classroom

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What I've been waiting for.‏

Somebody who understands science (a positive). A big postive.

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Very weird feeling... extreme weird. After years of being in the middle of fighting "Creation Science," here I find myself promoting it. The only exception is, I'm basing the interpretation on *literal Genesis* and actual science... aligning the two.

Somebody from Troutville, Virginia... the first person I've found with a specific search string related to what I've proposed for explaining the text of Genesis Chapter One. Somebody who maybe does understand the significance of "Cambrian Explosion". It would be nice.

I am not underestimating or overestimating the significance of the Cambrian Explosion, just as Darwin himself made an ordeal over it, grieved until he went to his grave... incapable of explaining the phenomena in the fossil record. It's got to be the greatest mystery, perplexing scientists worldwide to this day.

Sort of leaves me with a sick feeling though, after seeing all the damage (my entire life) personally victimized by ignorance the church taught. They taught me in my youth, the earth was only around 6,000 or 10,000 years old, and made to look like a numbwit when discussing European history with a pagan, back in 1991. First "debate" I'd ever been in with anyone. I'd never acquainted anyone who believed in Evolution, until that day. He said the European people had lived in Europe around 30,000+ years. I thought he was nuts... I wrote an organization I trusted for verification, and they sent Xerox of an article showing a "Venus" from Vienna, dated around 32,000 -- a male human, with a lion's head.

Here is that very article, which caused me to lose belief in a Young Earth Creation to a believer in Human Evolution. (Although, in 1991 I was far from having any real understanding of the fossil record.) It comes from National Geographic, October 1988, "The Search for Modern Humans"



In his correspondence, which consisted of snail-mail at that time, the man claimed the eldest known "Venus" was a female idol dating 30,000 years. I realized, he was wrong from what the article said... aye! victory.... it was 1) Male and 2) Older than his date, but, oooo, I learned at the same time that ancient people did indeed exist since tens of thousands of years ago -- and my faith in organized religion was shot down. I was already having doubts in 1991 and had dropped from the church.

Upon reading the article and realizing I had been prevented from trusting the school system / science, lending to darkness and ignorance, helped lead to packing away the Bible and forgetting it, rejecting it, as a book of myths.

Even now, having re-embraced Christianity fully and with all that I know of faith, and science included... I would stake everything that the full record of Paleontology can be aligned with the book of Genesis, however I would never want to see "Creation Science" taught in schools! Mainly, because mankind is not fit to teach even the Bible. Only God is fit to reveal truths, to the willing and open mind that trusts in Him. The scriptures say, "They will be taught by God."

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
~ John 6:45

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
~ Hebrews 8:10-11

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
~ Luke 11:9

Let them debate Genesis, until the cows come home... but keep it out of the class room (that includes Atheists and their revolting war on faith). So many people have been mis-educated about science, thanks to organized religion and its opponents who don't know Exegesis of the Bible, from a hole in the ground.

Therefore, thanks to that very ignorance, the last total I read, reveals a whopping statistic of something like Christianity branching into 20,000+ sects and denominations and they can not even agree among themselves.. above all, afraid to teach the truth about the simplest of things -- a great falling away has resulted because of the failure of the Church! But would be so bold as to propose over-taking education? God is not the author of confusion. Man is the author of the confusion.

One body in Christ Jesus? Nobody is teaching the truth anymore... either they don't know the truth, or they're too afraid to teach it to the masses. Seriously, why is it I can purchase scholars texts and critical commentaries like some on my book shelves, i.e., "Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics," written by Dr. Norman Geisler, and even in his conservative rationale he is allowed to say in the book that the Hebrew word being used regarding the flood can imply a "localized flood" and all geological evidence confirms a "worldwide flood" is impossible, yet, the typical preacher tells an entirely different version to the people who sit in the pews every Sunday.
Being associated with an Agnostic / Anti-Theist / Evolutionist for a number of years now... I've been seeing, first-hand (being in the midst of Skeptic circles; Atheists and Agnostics), what results when organized religion relies on man's ignorance to interpret scripture: People drop out and become foam at the mouth Atheists and Agnostics, and other enemies to Christ. You can blame the church itself, for this. Thier refusal to teach the truth, including the unpopular truths, is completely to blame. Believers are not equipped to deal with questions, nor are they prepared to face some of the simplest tests of their faith, such as discrepancies in scripture. Once the average pew-sitter becomes aware of some of the smallest issues, which are normal questions faced by theologians every day, the delusion of inerrancy is shattered, and sometimes, that person may even receive the big "please don't come back," brush off when they ask too many questions, which leads to alienation and quite possibly becoming another typical Atheist with the typical story of becoming a "former fundamentalist". The church has failed them! So the bitterness of Anti-Theists is no real surprise.

My first loss of belief was in the church I was raised and groomed in (The Worldwide Church of God).. completely fundamentalist, and alongside attacks on science, it steadily waged a war of slander against Christianity itself. The WWCG was strict and legalistic in Orthodox laws, very much like Judaism in many ways. In 1991, when I began to see the cult fall apart following the death of the founder, and after a lifetime of being taught "this is the one true truth," my delusion about a "one true religion," and blindly following a man, was shattered. I felt like the fabric of my entire world had been pulled from my feet... I woke up and realized, you can not trust a church... nothing is forever.

Then, I prayed for God to reveal the truth to me himself. What happened instead, was an "answered prayer," and a rather rude awakening when my brother (who had since became Atheist) up and decided to trek all the way from California (1993) and set down a stack of Atheist literature in front of me, challenging me to read it if I had an open mind. There, I learned things the church never told me.

And you know what? The atheists weren't lying... it didn't take much -- just reading scriptures themselves. Taught since birth, "The Bible has no errors or contradictions." But that book, the Bible Handbook (Atheist book) challenged me to open my own Bible, and compare various scriptures. I challenge any Christian to do the same, but keep in mind, to pray for God to reveal the explanation to you. Remain faithful, because it may take years of study, before you are lead to a full understanding. Be my guest, but such Atheist literature is drawing straight from the Bible itself to deceive people and lead them from the church, and the body of the Anti-Christ is growing, because the Church has failed to teach the truth. They fear to teach the truth. The adherents of Christianity have put their faith into too many Jimmy Swaggarts, Ted Haggards and Jim Bakkers, instead of relying totally on faith in Jesus Christ and calling out to God himself to teach them. Therefore, the Church has became weakened and has failed, with a great falling away from truth, that began, even many centuries ago.

I did just that... I was not afraid to confront a truth, and believed I was strong enough in faith to take on anything! I was mislead by the Church. I did not have the knowledge to read and understand scriptures. I would go as far as to say, the Church had convinced me that I was incapable of reading scriptures and understanding without a preacher interpreting for me, when that false doctrine itself (taught by wicked men who sought to have power over the masses) contradicts the teachings of Jesus and the prophets!

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
~ John 6:45

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
~ Hebrews 8:10-11

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
~ Luke 11:9

I read the verses, and compared them from my own Bible and gained a knowledge I had never knew. I read until the sun rose, I was speechless. I resented my Atheist brother for showing me the truth, but... I remember that sick feeling, he was right and I speechless, thinking "I don't want to discuss."

I became an Atheist for about 2 minutes... then remembered an apparition me and a friend saw years before, knowing "okay, so something exists beyond, but what?!" now believing the Bible couldn't answer that question, I settled into becoming Deistic... not having any clue, "Where do I go next?" In 1993, I even wrote the Atheist publisher, Farrel Till (exposed to the "Skeptical Review," publication by my brother), and Mr. Till published the letter. (Round about the spring 1993 edition, Letters to the Editors section). Mr. Till responded in kind, that he was tremendously disillusioned upon realizing the "damaged bag of goods" he too had been sold by religion.

Over that span of 2 years, I had the rug pulled from under me, twice. In 1991... faith in organized religion blown to shreds. And in 1993... faith in the Bible itself, blown to shreds.

I packed away the Bible for 7 years and mostly forgot about it. Seldom did the Bible enter into my mind, except with disdain and resentment for how the ancient book had been used by certain men in organized religion, in their agenda to control me, to bridle me with a ton of perpetual guilt, typical "God hates you" sermons about hell and brimstrone... fear, to control the faithful. And, as we all know, there's 1000's of religions, and they all hold the monopoly on the "one true truth".

In late 1999 - early 2000, I began feeling something tugging on my spirit to accept Christianity. I couldn't do that though, I thought, because, the Bible had errors and contradictions -- and long before, the Worldwide Church of God had already convinced me that Christianity itself was the "spawn of Satan," with its Christmas Trees (tree worship), and steeples sitting on the Christian Church (Egyptian obelisk)... Herbert Armstrong's teachings of Christianity itself being the "Babylon Mystery Religion". Therefore I could not be Christian. I went through a miserable spiritual conflict.

But something kept tugging on my spirit, I had to believe... I just had to take a leap of faith, anyway... the force was convincing my mind, "you never gave Christianity a chance...." So, being fair and open-minded, I decided, I'd give it a try... despite what I knew of scripture being a "book of myths". I set out on a journey then, to explain the discrepancies in scripture and prove the Bible true to myself.

I did not have any proof, and every reason not to believe, but converted anyway on a blind leap of faith.

After converting, I soon saw the ignorance and superstition in the people in Christianity... the preacher at the local church even warned me the dangers of asking too many questions. Such as, "Where does the Bible come from?" Amazing... nobody knew! The first break I got was when my Atheist brother called me up out of the blue, and offered a "Children's School Primer," which explained the origins of the Bible, from its beginning on Papyrus to later day scribes hand-copying text, generation after generation.
And when I asked a Sunday School teacher, "Have you ever actually read the Bible," and his answer was "NO" -- I asked him, "Well how then do you know its the Word of God?" I made people angry enough, that I was soon accused of Demon Possession.
The good Lord saw to it that I moved away from that church to study science and Genesis and the actual scripture and praying to God to reveal THE TRUTH.

Needless to say, the same preacher who warned me how Christians hate knowledge, was soon fired because he introduced a slightly upbeat rhythm in music... to cater to a younger generation of Christians. Before he was fired, he had encouraged me to call Christian Book Distributors, and check out their selection of scholars texts and a full line of books read by those who are theologians and attend seminary (like Preachers).

I began a new path... the search for knowledge and truth.

Instead, what I got was caught up with somebody who _did_ know scripture very well... enough to answer EVERY QUESTION, and enough knowledge about scripture to deceive, distort and twist scripture to bring about serious doubts in my mind. I fell in with Atheists, who spend their time pouring over the Bible, tearing into it verse by verse (former fundamentalist Christians), tearing into it with a passion, but with one goal in mind: to disprove it. If only Christians had an ounce of the same fervent passion, surely God would be pleased! God loves the zealous heart and mind. If Christians would do so, there just might be some decent defense of the Bible for a change. It was answers (perhaps not the right ones)... but answers, all the same. It was more answers than I had gotten from the religious establishment. (You know, the same religious establishment that crucified Jesus?) No preachers in this day and age, dare openly discuss truth... and often being, the same truth they are taught in seminary! Shame on them.

So that's how I got deceived a second time, and lead away from Jesus.

In 2007, when my eyes were re-opened (I was compelled to begin purchasing books from Amazon on the history Communism, and combined with about 20 years of what I'd learned about history came pouring in) -- it was like waking up staring a devil in the face. I remember that feeling of uncertainty and horror. I knew that I might not have one single answer about the Bible (I was not any wiser than when I started out seeking to reconcile the scriptures) but I was certain with what I knew about Socialists (leftwing/liberals)... their war against people of faith under Communism, whatever side Atheists/Agnostics were on, I'm not on that side.

Although, in my mind -- I do believe that some Atheists are sincere about their beliefs, (perhaps due to lack of knowledge about the whole spectrum of issues). For instance, they are not aware of what their brethren have committed in the name of the Atheist Apostle Karl Marx. In fact, oddly enough, the first mention of "Pol Pot" and "Mao" was offered up by an Atheist. He stated to me in correspondence, how often we'd heard of the wanton mayhem of Hitler's millions, but never hear of those death tolls under Communist tyrants. So, there are some Atheists who probably do genuinely believe they are following a path in life, paved with with good intent... especially, once they are made aware of the brutalities committed under the power of church and state, under the Popes of Old Europe... though completely unaware of Atheism's own bloody history: 100 Million slaughtered in the 20th Century (counting until 1989), for verification see "The Black Book of Communism" (Harvard University Press).

When I re-embraced my faith, I could not prove anything to myself at that moment for truth of the Bible, but I was certain with all that I had seen and known: "I'm taking the Bible and Jesus Christ, on faith and let God do the rest."

I know full well why Atheists and Agnostics *hate* the church so much... and the church is very much to blame for that. The establishment with-holds information, they do not teach the full truth to adherents, that preachers and theologians claim the luxury for themselves to know. Therefore, people are slipping away from the faith. But the grass is not greener on the other side. Due to a little knowledge which, in the wrong hands can be a very dangerous thing. I was slowly deceived to join in with Anti-Theists. In 2007, I had awaken to find myself guilty of making hostile attacks on religion and, on many occasions. Just because a person believes in a God, does not make them a friend to Christianity by default.

Yes, with all I have seen and learned, I say keep the "creation science" out of the classroom. If the religious establishment is failing to even correctly teach the Bible, then how much less is it capable of teaching "Science," an area totally un-related to Theology?

Why does the church refuse to teach people the truth of the Scriptures and God? It took no time at all to understand, as one preacher explained the "miracle of the torn veil on the temple," symbolized that _any person_ could enter into the presence of God, without fear of being stricken dead, through grace in Jesus Christ. But people are looking to men like Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, Ted Haggard, Jim Jones (actually he was an Atheist, a Marxist-Leninist, but whose counting?)

"Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch."
~ Matthew 15:14

Following men... not following Jesus, not asking for God to teach them as was promised by Jesus and the prophets. They follow men, and are therefore lead astray into darkness. Yet complain about what Scientists are teaching to children and Atheists who lead people astray? The greatest enemy that any Christian should fear, is within the church itself because the leaders of the religious establishment REFUSE to teach the truth. For posterity, I'll say it once again: it is the same religious establishment who crucified Jesus Christ who came to fulfil the law and teach none other, than the truth. For this, the religious establishment hated him (and without cause).

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me."
~ John 6:45

"For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest."
~ Hebrews 8:10-11

"And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you."
~ Luke 11:9

Those truths which Jesus and the Apostles taught, could be very threatening to certain men who seek power and domination over the masses in the establishment of organized religion, no middle men, with Jesus as the only intermediator between a man/woman, and God.

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Of Apes and Man

2

What is known of apes (primates), females use sex as leverage, a weapon in the troop. It was probably so with ancient man; for instance one documentary which investigated a tribe of primitive people (who would not have been infected with or from the wicked line of modern man; Adam), living disconnected from all western civilization -- their ritual and custom was, any woman who wanted any man, he "gave it up," there was no complaint about how attractive a woman is, fat, age, etc. All the women dominated the men in that primitive tribe. Charles Darwin discovered in nature, "Female Choice," tends to be the rule.

...prostitution still continues to this day. A hangover from the ancient past.

The curse in Genesis was,

"your desire... will be to your husband,"

and no woman who's a street walker, and honest with herself can say that it does not HURT selling herself out to strangers, when she'd so much rather have a man who loves and protects her from the brutality of the world. Any woman who denies it, is a liar.

She desires love of a husband... one man... monogamy. Animals don't seem bothered by it at all... but it is a conflict in nature, some species are monogamous, while others are polygamous...

The human male is driven by polygamy in his nature, while the woman is mongamous, and that conflict leads to immeasurable sorrow, misery, heartache ... it is hell for any woman forced to put up with adultery.

** I would rather be dead.

To save woman from that curse in Genesis, it was written in the Commandments of God, instructing the males, "Thou Shall Not Commit Adultery," following the law of murder, itself. For, speaking as a woman, it is the murder of a woman's heart, and mind, and soul, when her husband cheats.

As one psychological fact revealed recently, a man tends to base his self-esteem and self-worth on "what's out there," in society, while a woman tends to base her self-worth on what her husband's opinion is of her. It is a cruel fate, and curse on woman. Primitive people may not recognize this, but any woman who is a descendant of Adam (modern man) knows the conflict, in her soul, and it is the same had a knife been stuck through her back, when her husband commits adultery. It is the ultimate insult, it is a death sentence for a woman's heart; intimacy and the ability to trust a man.

**On second thought, nope, I'd rather HE be dead.
KJV, Revelation 21:8
"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

KJV 1 Corinthians 6:9
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,"

(And personally, I do have one husband who thought adultery was peachy-keen, and thought polygamy was perfectly acceptable (aye how Israel was destroyed in the O.T. because Solomon erected pagan temples to pagan gods, and had "many wives"... just before the fall and demise of Israel), and my husband raped, and murdered... I happily assisted the FBI in their investigation, and saw to it that he will sit behind bars, hopefully until he is laying in his grave.
A brother who thought it was fine to hand over his sister to his "friends," for a "fun time," then lie about it to cover up the crime. Just days before he went to his grave (an Atheist) he was foaming hatred of God from his mouth, and now, good-bye "brother." He passed away from suicide -- according to what I've read, he swallowed a lot of pain medication which probably allowed him to live just long enough to feel his heart explode... He couldn't deal with it, when the police confirmed it was statutory rape, and he was indeed GUILTY, as an accessory. He killed himself... he felt no remorse.

Therefore I feel no remorse.

It takes thousands of years for somebody to say, what Solomon did (erecting pagan temples to pagan gods and taking "many wives") was an abomination... and because some wicked scribes praised Solomon's worldly wisdom, he was deemed, "Holy" and "Wise" in the Scriptures. He was a wretched, evil man.
Does any man have the ability to discern in the simplest things, or did God need to speak that Solomon's wisdom was entirely worldly wisdom, and like east is to the west, lacking in spiritual wisdom, and enmity to God, and disobedient to the Commandments?

Atheists look at the example of the wicked Solomon and his polygamy and reason, "It is acceptable to commit adultery with many women." As is the case with Atheists Hugh Hefner and Larry Flynt, who are responsible for bringing national morality to an all-time low in U.S. History.
How the Atheists do look at apes and wild animals, saying "barn-yard animals are homosexual," and this or that species are polygamous, therefore, it's just great for humans too. Darwin said we came from apes, "therefore we can behave like them too."
The males are having a big party free for all, while single mothers are stuck at home raising the unwanted children. Sometimes becoming so grieved that "You can't win for losing," they dump the children on the grand-parents and move on with their lives just desperately hoping to have a little fun... if any pleasure can be found. There is no hope, unless MEN will keep the commandments of God.
Women have cried out, that it's not intended to be this way (men committing adultery and divorce like its never been in the history of man), but Hollywood continues to churn out the lies to promote adultery and moving on to children younger and younger, corrupting them in their youth before they are even old enough to make a "consentual decision," ... surely these are the last days (perilous times).

This statement alone, sounds bells and whistles it's a forgery:

** "as the law also says (Genesis 3:16)"

See University of North Carolina, (Commentary on the) Oppression of Women in Early Christianity
http://people.uncw.edu/zervosg/Pr236/Ehrman23.htm
There was no "law" that women must obey men. Rather, Jesus did strongly rebuke and condemn the males of the religious establishment, for alterations on the law of Moses that permitted for divorce, and notably, "it was not so since the beginning," further chastising them, that because of their customs, the law of God had became of no effect.



The scribe wished to enslave woman, instead of freedom in salvation through Jesus Christ. The scribe forged, "Submit to a man, and learn under a man... mindless obedience to men"...? Here's one evangelist who summed things up so nicely, with much pain in his voice:

"...it was a mass-murder, because men and women were following a man, and I am going to let every one of you that are here under this tent, you that are listening to this radio broadcast, My God don't follow a man, don't follow a church, if you're going to follow somebody, follow Jesus! Follow Jesus! Look unto Jesus who is the author and the finisher of your fate..."

Women, do not look to a man to lead you, he will surely lead you into destruction with him! Look to Jesus! Look to Jesus!



Communism of Jim Jones, August 1983



One evangelical preacher (below) discusses the problem with Jim Jones, there were no bibles ... no place to pray... what else than Communism? Unfortunately, I have only part of that preacher's voice recorded to MP3 format (here), and welcome others to download.

He said

'I was Jim Jones' attorney.' I said 'When did you find out that he was not the man of God that he was billed to be?' He said 'When I visited Jonestown, when I walked in his so-called church. He said there was no bible, there were no holy pictures, there was no cross. Nothing. And I looked him right in the eye and I said to him 'Why is it there's no bible, and there's no place to pray?' He said 'We don't need that anymore,' and he says 'I am no longer your attorney, and you no longer need me.' And he walked out of there when Representative Ryan flew in to Guyana, the first man he called was Sir Lionel Luckhoo, and asked him to fly with him to Jonestown, he said 'God will not let me go'. If he had have gone he wouldn've been massacred with Representative Ryan, are you listening to me? And I'm going to reveal something to you that possibly the public does not know - Sir Lionel Luckhoo told me that the coroner was a close personal friend of his, and he said that he examined every single one of the bodies, this was not a mass-suicide like the world was brainwashed into thinking, but when that coroner examined the bodies, there was a pinhole in ninety-seven percent of all the bodies, they were injected with a poiso*, it was a mass-murder, because men and women were following a man, and I am going to let every one of you that are here under this tent, you that are listening to this radio broadcast, My God don't follow a man, don't follow a church, if you're going to follow somebody, follow Jesus! Follow Jesus! Look unto Jesus who is the author and the finisher of your fate, the devil is out to destroy every child of God that he can find! Can you shout 'Amen' somebody?''

Thanks to the comments!!

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